How to design DTC loyalty programs with AI: Nathan Snell on Rayleon's Shopify Integration

Wiehan Britz:
Okay, welcome to another episode of Inbox Invaders where we talk about everything related to email and sms marketing, especially retention marketing. How can we increase those repurchase rates? Today I have a special guest joining me, Nathan. He will tell you a little bit more about his background and what they do on their end.

But I think it's going to be an interesting conversation because the one thing that got me from what they are doing, and we're going to dig into the software and the solution soon is they've got this big statement on their website saying forget about traditional loyalty. And I love that because I do feel that the loyalty system is a little bit broken, has been broken for a while. So Nathan, thanks for joining me. Tell the, it's about your backstory and what we're trying to accomplish here.

Nathan Snell:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I mean, first, I mean, appreciate, appreciate the time and being able to jump on and hopefully, you know, some of what we have kind of seen in market and are seeing with customers and share will even help other, will help other brands, you know, continuing to grow since, I mean, ultimately, you know, what we're focused on, right. Really is increasing repeat purchase rate, increasing LTV and doing it in a way that's sustainable and profitable, which I'd say it seems to be more and more important with what feels like the constantly increasing customer acquisition costs on meta and things of that sort.

For us, to your point, we talk about forgetting about traditional loyalty and that's because a lot of what we've seen is if you sort of, honestly, it's funny if you go back into even the 1950s, loyalty for decades has been what we call like one size fits all or generic or cookie cutter, you know, where it's really like everybody gets the same stuff. And like, an example I often use is, you know, I mean, I used to go to panera, which is like a deli here in the US, you know, very often. And like they've got coffee and sandwiches and things like that. And I probably went once a week for, you know, for maybe a year, right. It was right next to, you know, to the office at the time.

Nathan Snell:
And never once in my entire, and they have a loyalty program and never once in my entire time of, you know, of going to being sort of a customer of panera, you know, did I uh, did I purchase coffee? Because like I just, I just don't drink coffee and that's probably something for a different episode. But um, but like, but they would always go and uh, they like, their first reward and recommendation to me was always coffee. And I'm like, guys, like, I get that the majority of your customers drink coffee and that's fine, but like, we're on the scene.

I'm in the south. Like, why don't you offer me sweet tea or some number of other things that I would much prefer besides coffee and like, presumably unsurprisingly to their data. Like, I never once redeemed their stuff. I didn't really use their loyalty program because, you know, it was just one size that, you know, fits all thing that treated every customer the same. And in the world of like, personalization and how things are evolving, like, that's just not, like, that's, one, that's not as effective anymore.

Nathan Snell:
And two, it's, it's actually harmful to margins, which we can get to get into and that sort of thing. So that's some of where kind of even the precipice of where this, um, of where this idea came from. And like, and I'd liken it to, you know, if you're doing email marketing and you know this, like, if you do email marketing, you know, you're not going to go and send out an email and not, not a b test at least the subject line, right?

You're at least going to kind of split test that subject line. But when we look at something like loyalty, like, we do the equivalent of like, okay, all of our customers, yeah, let's just send them all the same exact email with the same exact subject, exact subject line and then like, hope for the best. Like, we don't treat things that way anymore, so loyalty shouldn't be treated that way.

Wiehan Britz:
That wraps it up. Thanks for the session today. The thing is, all your points resonate quite well with me. We speak to clients and prospects constantly, asking questions around retention marketing. How can I get people to buy more often? More frequently? They have some of them. They've had loyalty programs in the past, very static. A, didn't work. B, it was impossible to determine the uplift in any ROI.

Wiehan Britz:
Not saying that loyalty should only be an ROI platform, but end to end, it was just completely broken. So I am glad that you are trying to tackle these problems and challenges for brands head on just because I think that is all the things you've listed are some of the reasons why people are so cynical about bringing a loyalty program back into the mix. We used to service a client that had a fully fledged loyalty program in place.

They got so fed up with it's not working, it's just time consuming that to get them onto a loyalty program now you know, after that experience, it's extremely difficult. And then like you say, it isn't even about the brand, it's about the shoppers, like their experience with it. So all of those points resonate, you know, heavily with me and you know us as a retention marketing agency. So appreciate that.

Nathan Snell:
‍Yeah.

Wiehan  Britz:
Mind taking us to the platform? How does it actually work? Like how do you personalize this? What's behind this engine? Because I think people are so fixated on it's another point system. So five points for doing this, 100 for that. What's different here? Like how does it look like in the background?

Nathan Snell:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. We can definitely do that. And I think one of the things that you said we find pretty often, which is, and I'll go ahead and I'll share my screen here in a minute, but which is we find even as consumers, we tend to fall into one of two categories, right, where it's like you've either had a really good experience with loyalty or you've had sort of a bad one. And it's like, oh, like my grocery store points programs and I don't care or some. Right. It's like, oh, Delta. And I love my Delta miles and my status or things like that. And, you know, depending on like what your experience has been, it tends to sort of, you know, jade, folks, right, because everybody's familiar with loyalty.

Nathan Snell:
But, you know, the reality is like, there's very few instances where it's been done really well, but it's amazing, right, because the instances that it has been done really well, you see it being incredibly effective, right? Like Starbucks has a great loyalty program that people rave about. If you look at, you know, in, you know, more in like the Europe area, I think I'm trying to remember which where specifically.

But, you know, there's a brand, shoot, I'm forgetting the name now. I think, I think Mecca might be what they're called. But like, there's a beauty brand that does an amazing job with their loyalty program, right? They have hundreds of thousands of customers that talk about it and there's groups and it's like, there's, you know, there's few examples of it done really well, but like, it's unfortunately easy to just set one up, which, you know, and like, kind of throw it out there, which isn't really the right way to do it. And that's where for us, we tend to take a very different starting point because of that. So I'll share my screen here. And this is the beginning of the Rayleon platform.

Nathan Snell:
So our view, and this is partially because we're an AI native company. So from my background and everything else, we won't go into it. We've just done a lot around data and analytics and AI and that sort of stuff. So our starting philosophy and what we found, frankly, before we even started the company and talking with a lot of brands, Washington, you know, a lot of folks don't really realize what their loyal customers look like, you know, and like, and our perspective was, well, like, unless you really understand what your loyal customers look like, it's really hard to systematically recreate, you know, loyal customers. Right.

Because at the end of the day, loyalty isn't just about a points program, right? Like, one thing that we say a lot to our customers is like, loyalty is a strategy, it's not a program, right. A program is part of that strategy overall. And there's a number of things like great customer service and things like that that go into creating loyal customers.

Nathan Snell:
And it's like, if your customer service is terrible, a points program isn't going to help you because you've got this massive gap in the funnel. And as much as with us having even a modern loyalty platform, I'd love to say, oh, well, points fix everything. If you look at the data, the number one reason that somebody is loyal to a brand is because they have a great customer experience.

Loyalty can be part of that. But at the end of the day, there's many things that go into that strategy overall. So, like, we, as a result, we like to start with data. So actually, when you first install Rayleon, what we actually do is we, our AI learns the brands, it learns about all of the customers. It applies predictive scoring to all those customers, loyalty scoring.

Nathan Snell:
And then actually automatically segments, predictively, those customers into these four segments. Right? So this idea of, you know, a new customer, a growth customer, growth opportunities, loyal customers, and not loyal or sort of, you know, dormant customers, if you will. And what we found in doing that is one, it sort of immediately provides this insight because like a program, again, to your point, Wiehan, it's not just like, oh, here's some points, there's actually these points in time that are really important to be able to engage a customer and hit them the right way.

And when you just treat it as this kind of cookie cutter method, what happens is, and actually, Sean Frank had a great tweet a couple of weeks back on this, and he's absolutely right, where when it's this one size fits all, you end up spending all this margin on your loyal customers that are inclined to buy anyway, and you want to use that margin on your net new customers.

And the irony is, when it's not personalized, what happens is you spend your $10 off, $15 off, whatever rewards on these loyal customers. And that's actually not even a meaningful incentive to them. They want exclusivity, they want access, they want things that as a loyal customer, they want status. Whereas when you're in that new customer, you haven't hit that yet, the brand is still being proven out to you.

Nathan Snell:
So you want to spend that precious margin on, on those early customers to make them loyal. And that's what, you know, what we begin to leverage this data to start to show is like, what are those key points? Right. Sometimes it's not the second purchase, right. Sometimes it is, we have some customers where it's actually the third or fourth purchase that they need help on hitting. And as a result, you can really personalize it and tailor, you know, Taylor Rayleon to make that happen. So I figured I'd love it.

Wiehan Britz:
I think the first time, first time you showed me the data, yeah, I think I fell in love with the platform just because. How do you extract the data yourself? Just raw, organically without using some AI making the mechanism to it? I love the fact that you can plug it into it and AI machine and it kind of does chunks of the, and I think that's one of the challenges or one of the pitfalls people fall into is they don't do that analysis prior to starting wealthy program, like you say, they just deep dive into it, set the different point categories of parameters, and off you go. So I do like the fact that you guys do start from a data point of view, which I think is critical for loyalty success anyways.

Nathan Snell:
Yep. Yeah, absolutely. And what's helpful, right, is to exactly your point. If you're getting started off, in a lot of cases, what we hear is folks saying, oh, well, we're in the process of designing or structuring our points program. And like, and the question we frequently ask is like, great, well, who are you targeting with it? And they're like, well, what do you mean? It's like, well, are you trying to drive a second purchase more? And for who are you trying to drive a fourth purchase more? And for who are you trying to create more LTV on your loyal customers?

And like, and again, without the data and without sort of kind of going through this and really dissecting it, whether it be with an agency like, you know, like you all, if they don't have the experience or internally it's again, the effectiveness begins to really drop and you get that frustration that you talked about with your early client and that's really where one of the things that we like to highlight just as an example here. So this is our repeat purchase, what we call our repeat purchase burn down. And what you want to see is this beautiful sort of curve here where here's your very loyal customer. There's very little drop off because the other thing too is people, they tend to focus on the wrong thing when it comes to loyalty.

Nathan Snell:
So if you segment it and say, let's just for the sake of even this podcast, think about a net new customer. Well, a lot of folks go, well, this is great. Look how many times somebody buys a second time. Look how many times somebody buys a third time. This is awesome, right? And they're looking at that going, we're doing a really good job. And like there's some truth to that. But what they're missing is the drop, right?

They're missing the slope of the curve, you know, in terms of cut in terms of these growth opportunities. Because what this is actually showing you is there's almost a 50% drop in first time to second time and second time to third and third and so on, which means you're losing a huge amount of customers.

Nathan Snell:
Right. You know, on each of those purchases. So like, yeah, it's great that, you know, that you got almost 4000 people to purchase twice. But like that drop off is what we want to target and that's where as we work with different customers, you know, on the Rayleon platform side, we're able to use this personalization to your question and go, awesome. Well, why don't we have something that's specifically tailored to new customers and early growth growth opportunity customers? And it's going to drive them, it's going to drive them into that second and third purchase specifically, right.

And then once they move out of that tier, those things are going to go away, sort of unbeknownst to them, because they're going to get moved into a new set of personalized campaigns that are going to drive them into that more long tail loyalty. And as a result, right, you can begin to see things like what we see with our customer. You know, one of our customers, uh, this is kind of an example, they're not there specifically, but this idea, and we start to see it often, where less than 10% of your overall customer base makes up 30% to 50% of the revenue.

Nathan Snell:
Right? Like that begins to get into this really healthy tier where you're going, man, we're driving a really strong LTV across our customers. They're driving a significant portion of revenue. And then you can start shifting into, okay, well, how do we take more of our growth customers and turn them into oil ones? One other thing I'd call out, too, just because it's something that our customers mention a lot, we've actually had customers that start to take this dashboard and show it to their board. So because we do this auto segmentation, one of the things that we often find is when you look at AOV or even LTV, it's looked at sort of holistically as opposed to by segment.

So as a result, somebody says, you know, they'll go and say, oh, our LTV is great. It's say, you know, it's 350 across our customers, and it's like, okay, well, like, how is that actually weighted? Where does that come from? And oftentimes what we see, we've seen it almost, almost 100% of the time across now, more than 100 live customers. And what we tend to see is that your LTV is so heavily driven by your most loyal customers, which makes sense intuitively. But as you can even see here, honestly, it's like, it tends to be at least three to five x, right.

Nathan Snell:
So it's like, again, you think about that. That means that you're only actually capturing that really strong LTV if you're spending it upfront in CAC, if you're getting more and more loyal customers, if you're not, you're not really capturing that well across the board. So again, that's part of where that personalization, that segmentation becomes so important, solid.

Wiehan Britz:
And just quick on you. I think you've mentioned this, but this is essentially just plugging into your Shopify data, correct?

Nathan Snell:
Correct. Yep, yep. That's a great shout out. So, yeah, we're fully integrated with Shopify. We've got an app on the store there. And literally, you go and you install the Rayleon app. And honestly, as soon as you hit install and you kick off onboarding, our AI gets to work and it begins to learn this stuff. So one of the things that we really want to do is help founders and entrepreneurs, as opposed to locking all this stuff away, you can actually just go and install Rayleigh on today and the AI gets to work and you get analytics upfront.

Nathan Snell:
Again, it's because our philosophy is, look like, before you jump into programs, have some information, have some insights that you can actually leverage so you know, you can begin setting up a program. We actually have our AI make recommendations too. But you can get this sort of insight effectively free today through the Rayleigh on platform just so you can begin to understand, like, okay, like where, where does it even make sense to focus? And in some cases people go, you know, we have customers or prospects that have gone through this and we've looked at it and said, hey, look, like loyalty maybe doesn't even make sense for you. Like an actual program may not make sense for your brand at all today.

Wiehan Britz:
And I think this is the critical part to highlight is any new software adoption. The time to value is of essence here. And I think the fact that you can plug it in and after, I don't know how many hours or days, you'll get to see the insight and the value, you know, from an early point where I think with, you know, the typical, you know, loyalty programs, if you don't have put your head to it and you implement stuff, it can take weeks, even months to start to see some value from it. And so I like that you guys have played into that part, which does get people over the line, get them excited, keep them excited. So this is very smart.

Nathan Snell:
Yeah, absolutely. And you're right. I mean, one of the things that we did focus on was exactly that, time to value. You know, we know founders don't have a whole lot of time. You know, marketing teams don't have a lot of time. So we leverage AI in a number of ways to make that happen. And even switching gears a little bit, this is like a demo brand, apparel brand that we have. And part of what we did that's a little bit different.

Nathan Snell:
So there's the data side, we just saw the insight side, but there's also, what's the experience for your customer? And what we found in a lot of cases was the experience wasn't great. I'd almost describe it as the advent calendar of loyalty, where you come to a loyalty landing page and it's like, here's all the stuff that's thrown at you and it's hard to realize the value. So for us, we flipped it.

And again, we're like, well, what if we treat this more like an app? Because at the end of the day, loyalty, again, if it's not just a program, but it's a strategy, it should feel like a fully integrated part of the entire customer journey and experience. So it should feel more like an app. So in this case, this is an example of what we call the enchanted loyalty program. But this is actual screenshots from mobile of the app. For us, part of what ends up being different as a result too, is you still have an idea of what the program is, but because it's all personalized, it's less about highlighting, hey, here's this $5 off thing that you're going to get.

Nathan Snell:
It's more about saying, hey, here's experiences that you can get, here's milestones, here's collaborations that can happen, and all of this is available. We can even do tier exclusive stuff. So if you wanted to say, hey, look, here's styles that you only get access to if you're in a specific VIP tier or what have you, all of that's possible and available, but the benefit is it's available in this form factor that's a lot more like an actual app itself. If you're on mobile, it literally feels like a loyalty app.

If you're on desktop, everything that you see here is self service, brandable. So it's really fast and easy, but it's also personalized. So what you see if you log into this versus what I see is going to be different because of that personalization. The result of that, we find is it actually ends up being much faster to get up to speed because it's less.

Nathan Snell:
Let's spend six months planning out this huge, perfect program because we're never going to touch it again. And it's more of a, well, we're going to constantly be refining this based on what we see. And that's where, like, as a result, we've got a customer, for instance, they spent six months trying to go live with, you know, with a, with a provider out there, and they got frustrated and fed up.

And as a result, you know, they came to us, we went live in 18 days. So, like, from six months to 18 days live, seeing results, happy customers, less support requests and like, and what's cool is they're still rolling out new things, right? So they went live after a couple of months, they rolled out vip, they're making a tuning, they're doing adjustments, and that's the benefit where when it's not this cookie cutter thing, but it's actually kind of like an email marketing system in a way. You just have so much more flexibility and speed to be a benefit there.

Wiehan  Britz:
Nice. Very cool. I do see this as being a bit more of a frictionless experience, which I know is a big topic out there. I myself, I've seen horrible experiences when it comes down to even just the landing page. Exactly like you say, you've got all these different options being thrown at you. It's so overwhelming. Especially when you need to convert points into, you know, the value you get from it. Like 5000 points equals $2 of spend.

Wiehan  Britz:
It looks like it's just not a sensible approach. I do like the fact that it's a little bit more personal curated. Even the, the side panel here, the docking feels very much. I think Rebuy also does something similar with upsells cross sells, you know, basket values where it just feels part of the shopping experience rather than an afterthought somewhere, I need to log into some platform somewhere. I, firstly, I can't find my login credentials and password. So I do like the fact that it's seamless, you know, baked in experience. Very nice.

Nathan Snell:
Yeah, absolutely. Appreciate it and. Absolutely. And that's, that was the goal. I mean, that's sort of why, you know, we've got checkout extensions, we've got stuff throughout. So I mean, you can even embed aspects of it on your PDP's. You can put it in checkout and shopping cart and it's. Because it should.

Nathan Snell:
Like, what we found is, you know, if you look at the really big players, right? I mean, the folks that are, that are like the Fortune 500 retailers and things like that, that are doing really well with it, you know, it follows you around. Right? So our goal was how do we give that same sort of approach and tech to, you know, like to not sort of the Fortune 500, but, you know, everybody that's wanting to be successful in drive, LTV and so on.

So we've got the different extensions in the self service method where you can let loyalty follow your customers around so you can connect it to Klaviyo. We've got a deep and awesome integration there. So that way you send out the email, it's got a special link, you come here, what you're sort of promoting and that follows you in loyalty. It follows you on the site. And again, it's this cohesive thing because loyalty is a strategy. That program should fit into that strategy.

Nathan Snell:
It shouldn't just be, to exactly your point, this thing that sits off to the side where you're like, okay, well, I did stuff with the brand, now let me do some loyalty things. No, like, like, loyalty is about the brand and that's how it should feel.

Wiehan  Britz:
I like it. Nice.

Nathan Snell:
So that's, that's sort of the customer facing side, you know, in terms of how you sort of take action on it, you know, again, like, you start with the data piece here, you know, you've got sort of the nice self serve customer facing side, or shopper facing side, I should say. And then, you know, overall, we have the, our whole admin back end area. And this is where I won't go through all of it just because there's quite a lot here. This is where you've got the whole live preview section. So this is where you can brand everything. So you've got tons of control across the board here. You can do personalized campaigns. We actually just rolled out giveaways.

Nathan Snell:
So one of the things that we heard oftentimes was, I'd say our customers wanting to do things like, hey, you're in a specific vip tier. We want to automatically enter these customers into winning something once a quarter. Awesome. That sort of stuff's available now. Likewise, you can do ways to enter, so you've got ways to earn. But one of the things that becomes a challenge over time, right, is if you have, you know, a large customer base and they're accruing these points, well, like there becomes a little bit of concern where you're like, okay, well, I've got all these points, like how do I give people ways to spend it that isn't just rewards? So we call them point sync. So now you can run giveaways. So you can say, hey, if you do some of these things, you know, whether it's a purchase or something on social media.

Nathan Snell:
Well, now instead of rewarding you points or even as a reward, you can spend your points and get three more entries into this giveaway. So there becomes this really sort of like zero margin, kind of cost pure profit sort of effect to get people to spend their points and get something that's still fun and accretive to them and so on. And I think one other thing that's maybe worth mentioning too is we've got a pretty strong, you know, our whole system setup is actually is designed around customer behavior. So as opposed to this generic, oh, well, just pick one thing. We've got a lot of different ways to earn or what we call customer behaviors. But you can think of it almost like a rules engine. From this I could say, for instance, let's do number of purchases. Three is great.

Nathan Snell:
We have AI incorporated in. So I can hit smart suggest here and again, it's going to take what it knows about my brand and different details and automatically do some immediate branding text and everything else for me. And I can make any adjustments to this. So I could say inbox podcast perk just as an example. And then down here too, I can also pick my rewards and it doesn't have to be points. So to your point, to what you were saying earlier, this could be a point program, it could be something else. I can give points for making three purchases but I can also do a number of things. So I could give 200 points as bonus points.

Nathan Snell:
I can add additional rewards too and say I also want to give them a free product or I want to give them free shipping. So again, the thinking here is if you're personalizing this, it needs to not just be this static thing, but you need to have the flexibility to say I want to reward somebody for three purchases or I want to reward them for purchasing from a collection or from subscribing or social media activity for UGC.

And maybe it's not always points, maybe it's free shipping. A good example of this is have a customer where we found that they were giving this discount on their second purchase. And its a pretty common flow, right? So you say okay great, well you made your first purchase, now lets go and hit them with 15% off their second purchase. And that just wasnt converting because the perceived value wasnt there. So instead what they did is on the first purchase, if they went through this flow then they would get a free mystery shirt as something they could redeem on their second. So again, it's still part of the loyalty program, but instead of giving them points, they got like a free gift.

Nathan Snell:
Effectively that would be redeemed on their second purchase. And as a result within like a month's time or a little bit more than they've seen like a 3% increase in repeat purchase rate. Right. And like, and that's, you know, that's through loyalty. Right? So you talk about fast time to value. I mean they're getting a crazy ROI and it's not from sort of pure points, it's just from a well designed program because we looked at the data, we applied it in a personalized way because after you sort of flow through that, that's not seen or available anymore. Right. So it's not like they're giving away these free gifts all the time.

Nathan Snell:
It's only if you fall into this specific segment and that's kind of the power of, you know, what we're talking about here.

Wiehan  Britz:
I love it. Two questions here from my end. And first question is how does it plug into your fulfillment? If for argument's sake you've just unlocked a free product, does the platform itself just latch onto your Shopify fulfillment system and operations or how does that work? Because I've heard cases of loyalty programs almost messing with the fulfillment side of things. You give people a free shirt, they've just unlocked it. It's a nightmare to try and get the fulfillment team to obviously, yeah. Include that in orders and so on. What does that look like? Does it seamlessly set back within your fulfillment process or warehouse?

Nathan Snell:
Yeah. So that's a great question. It's something we spent a lot of time on. We have not ran into any fulfillment issues just because I'd say we still pass it through all that. So at the end of the day, we hand that off to Shopify into their whole order management process, and as a result, it naturally process into, flows into fulfillment, whether that's three PL or manually done. So in the case of a free product, for instance, with what we did with this particular customer, they actually created a specialty collection. They created a new SKU for that. It was sort of like it was a specialty.

Nathan Snell:
It was sort of a specialty SKU that would be handled in a certain way and then as a result, like what got selected was sort of already being handled by the fulfillment team. So we just sort of, we kind of, that tends to be how we handle it. So that way you don't run into these messy situations where like the three Pl team or fulfillment team isn't sure what to do. Instead, it's all just handled by Shopify in the same way that it normally.

Wiehan  Britz:
Is plugged into the same ecosystem. Got it. Second question here is the one we hear nonstop. And I don't know if there's an easy way to do it just because it isn't a silver bullet. How do you tend to measure the uplift, incremental gains from it? I know people are looking for the silver bullethen, uh, is it? Yeah. And you have pointed out certain case studies and wins. How does the platform encourage and stimulate some of that measurement for 42 C brands and retention marketing specialists?

Nathan Snell:
Yeah, that's a great, that's a really good question. It's something that we spend a lot of time, um, I'd say working on and thinking about. So there's a few parts to, so one, um, part of what we track is what we call return on loyalty spend because I think historically loyalty is very ROI focused. We have that, we measure it. Our customers get a great RoI. But id say we liken loyalty more to advertising and media buying.

So return on ad spend than we do to. Heres this thing that youre going to have that just has this blanket loyalty piece an upsell in a way it gets equated people sometimes treat it the same, but its like, well, but your upsell isnt the same because with an upsell, depending on what youre doing, youre not necessarily spending anything on it.

Nathan Snell:
Whereas with loyalty, like an ad, theres this idea of youre spending not always depending on what your program is, but assuming youre using rewards in your program, youre spending 5%, 10%, $5 off whatever it is to drive some kind of activity, the same way that youre spending money on an ad to drive customer acquisition or sort of reacquisition.

So for us, part of what we look at is what's the return on loyalty spend? In other words, for every dollar, like the roas, for every dollar of loyalty that I cost that I put in, how much revenue do I get out of it? So I'd say there's an aspect of like, we do look at the incrementality of stuff, but at the same time, if this is driving more behavior on your loyal customers and your return on loyalty spend is high.

In other words, if it's four to one, then it's a little bit of like, yeah, that loyal customer might have spent again, but if you accelerated that spend and they're still spending, that's not actually a bad thing. As long as your return on the loyalty spend is good. Right. So if you've got a four to one ratio or even higher than that, then it's a little bit of like, you know, you're getting an ROI because you're making a lot for every dollar that you put in. We track ROI additionally, we track some of that incrementality as well. But that tends to be one of the numbers that we focus on more.

Nathan Snell:
Because if that's good, then that means that you're getting the margin that you want, you're getting the results that you want, and you're actually getting a really good roi as a result.

Wiehan  Britz:
Like it? I love the return on loyalty spend metric. I think it's smart to create a way to measure it in a more numerical, systematic way. So that's pretty smart. I'm also looking at the landing page where I can see the analytics, the graphs. It's pretty cool. That's pretty cool. Okay. How can people get started? What does that look like? Is there a free trial? Like free demo or live demo they can book with you guys? How do we.

Wiehan  Britz:
Because I know, again, as I've said, it's quite intimidating to approach the waters that is loyalty programs.

Nathan Snell:
Yeah, I mean, so you can go to our site, you're welcome. Anybody can install the app themselves if they want to try it out. You can also go to our site, you can book a demo. We do free consultations as well. So if you're at a point where you're not sure sort of how to approach a loyalty program, we're happy to sort of help with that. There's agencies that we work with, too. So if the idea of setting this up is daunting, then we've got agency partners that you can work with. We also have vip onboarding where, depending on your size and your needs, where we'll kind of help drive a lot of that and run through the setup and the consultation, that sort of thing as well.

Nathan Snell:
So the nan answer is, if you go to our site, you can easily book something with us. And we've got a variety of ways, depending on your size, to kind of help folks get started.

Wiehan  Britz:
Brilliant. I love it. Yeah, I think that that basically wraps it up. I mean, the website, I am looking at the website on the right hand side. I can see there's pins, there's enough screenshots to give you insights into the tool. So, yeah, give it a, give it a shot. I think. I think you guys are also.

Wiehan  Britz:
I remember we discussed pricing on our previous conversation, and I think you guys also have a very competitive pricing. Your starting pricing point is very competitive. It is even for your smaller size sites. Yeah. Very, very easy to get started because I think that's also quite an overwhelming step for people to take, is I can, I can't spend, you know, thousands of money on another loyalty program. I know you guys have a very attainable or very, you know, cost effective system here that helps people to scan. So pretty cool.

Nathan Snell:
Absolutely.

Wiehan  Britz:
Appreciate your time. Thank you so much for that. I think people have gotten the gist of, you know, the power that sits behind the platform. Last question here. Should we go Jarpo for loyalty programs or your platform? Of course we know the answer. Love you, Yotpo, but I think you guys have a different angle to this. I think in the era of AI personalization, in my opinion, this is heading into a better direction when it comes down to loyalty. How can we get it to work for the brands again? I love it.

Wiehan  Britz:
Appreciate your time and all the shares. And, yeah, connect with Nathan. Reach out to them. Just get booking. It's as easy as that.

Nathan Snell:
Awesome. Appreciate it. Thank you all.

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